Episode 119: Pain Vs. Suffering

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she's still

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laughing that's so [Music]

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funny welcome to five lemons lab we're the real stuff the lemons making

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lemonade so Puck her up because we're going to be discussing our life's lessons and the nitty-gritty details of

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our spiritual [Music]

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Journeys hey y'all I'm Amanda and I'm Drusilla I'm Melissa hello this is

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Morgan and I'm Penny Welcome to our podcast

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today welcome to another episode of five lemons laughing today we're only four

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boo Morgan enjoying some family time so sending love to her um today we have a

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juicy topic it's yeah it's about pain and suffering you

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know and it's like have you ever noticed how two people can go through the same struggle one finds peace and the other

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stays stuck in that nasty old rut well that's what we're talking about today we're unpacking one of the course and

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Miracle most radical ideas it's suffering is

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optional so I think the most obvious place to start is like is there a difference between pain and suffering

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and what is that and kind of what is suffering well we do have a little bit

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of a definition um so pain is a natural response to injury loss or difficulty

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our bodies feel it and our hearts do too so we've all experienced that but

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suffering is what happens when we resist that pain when we attach a story to it

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or we refuse to accept it it's the difference between experiencing discomfort and getting stuck in it I've

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been there and today we're breaking down the distinction and exploring how shifting our perception can free us from

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unnecessary suffering so change our minds about the world change our minds about suffering

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and suffering will change can I share a parable yes about two monks and a woman yeah a bar do they

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go no no I have a joke about that okay

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okay so there two monks were traveling together when they came to a river with a strong current okay so as they

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prepared to cross they saw a young woman standing nearby hesitate and unable to make her way across the river so she

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asked the monks to help the older monk without a word picked her up carried across the river and gently set her down

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on the other side the younger monk shocked and upset remained silent but

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fumed as they continued their Journey hours later unable to hold it it in any

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longer the younger monk blurted out I can't believe you carried that woman we're monks we're not supposed to touch

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women the older monk calmly replied I set her down hours ago why are you still

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carrying her that's good

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ouch that's the difference between suffering and pain yes it

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is yeah and it it goes right to of course

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of Miracles um lessons from this week which about Grievances and holding on to Grievances and not forgiving people it

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just continues our suffering and we've all heard that um you know you you

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forgive people for yourself not for them right because it's it's the poison that keeps poisoning poisoning you not

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them I think Super yeah I think something super interesting to think about is what is the attraction of

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suffering like what is that attra action like um I remember for a long time like

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like holding a grudge like to me that's suffering right when you think about something or someone you like like

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relive it and like and I remember like holding a grudge for a long time was actually a badge of honor I not forget

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that person like um my husband um long

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even before he met me got Uninvited to a wedding because you know he liked to

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drink and party and I don't know what the whole story is but like and like years later like I you know like I

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didn't I was we weren't even together like I like just held a grudge on his behalf because I thought that was love

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like I don't like these people like I am toggling them off I never have to talk to them again you know that's amazing

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Amanda yeah I held a grudge for something that didn't even you know it was and I was like this is how I show my

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love to is like I am not gonna like these people on his behalf you stand in Allegiance right I am to you yes I'm

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loyal to you I will hate them God you say that Amanda I actually

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know people that I will not tell them a story about someone doing something to me because I know they will hold a

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grudge much longer than I ever will so I do not I have family members like that I

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do not tell them when a friend has crossed me because that friend can never come back around to family functions

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ever again life that's a really good point I did the same thing when I was

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first moved into the neighborhood we live right now and I shared with some neighbors that I used to walk with every morning some of the Grievances I had

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towards my husband well they're still holding it against him like 26 years later oh my gosh I know it's really sad

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so I learned it took me a while but I learned I can't share I well it's what

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I'm learning in my life is it's better for me to figure it out internally and

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go to trusted people that I know I can trust I thought I could trust them but I didn't realize I that they really loved

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me and they didn't like the way he was treating me and so they're going to hold it against him even though you know they

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say behind cloes doors you always work things out a husband and wife do and the kids never get to see that things have

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been worked out and so then they think that their parents are still upset with each other when really they've worked it out and so I guess I missed that part to

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share with my neighbors that we worked things out or are still working things out because you know I'm sometimes a

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slow learner but um yeah I you have to yeah so figuring out who you can TR that

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isn't going to judge you or the other person yeah holding a grudge like it's

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it's um a form of suffering totally totally that was a

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good question you posed Amanda what is it about human nature that makes us attracted to it though because I

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remember when I first started studying A Course in Miracles and I I realized what I was doing I recognized my mind

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searching for the Grievances like I knew that was something a reason why I

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felt a certain way about a person what was it oh yeah I remember back in high school when they did this or they said

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XYZ so I would literally search my mind for the G grievance just so that I can

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feel that feeling of what is it is it

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being able to impose guilt upon them to be right some sort or feeling better

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than better than yeah yeah yeah and like Buddhism talks about life is

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suffering and I think for me and from what I gather from kind of

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Eastern philosophy is that um life just

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is and life goes on and life does its natural thing and it's when we cannot

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accept everything that's happening around us that meaning we're making right meaning we're making MH and also I

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really do think that um like for me before I really started

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doing a spiritual practice was my life was about putting myself in either right

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or wrong I'm right I'm wrong I'm better I'm worse I'm prettier I'm not I'm

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chubbier I'm not um and so it was always reading like it's just this it was just

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this constant like uh where do I fit what's going on how is they is are they

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in My Tribe are they out of my tribe all that stuff instead of just saying you know I accept whatever is going on out

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there and for me I don't think I needed to com make a comment about everything or have a judgment or have to

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because I always wanted to be right and better I mean just kind of human nature

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and so um when we can kind of let go of that and just accept what truly is

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natural about the world um I think that that's where peace comes

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from I like that Melissa and something that you said in there um You didn't say

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societal Norms but I think that you alluded to it and I think that's one of the reasons why we get

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um you um to answer my own question right like that's like why we do it is

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um because Society has taught us those things and it's familiar and you know

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like my example like that's how I showed loyalty was to hold that grievance that

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judgment right that's and that is what um the external world is teaching us so

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I think that's one of the main reasons why it we do it why we feel like we have

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to suffer and I think we also want others to suffer with us of course we we're suffering let's get everybody in

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on it because oh my gosh we don't want to be suffering by ourselves but that but that makes you right does

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right so you're just trying to find more people to confirm that you're right and also like you can look at it on big

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levels like famine earthquakes you know like the what are

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your reactions to those do you wonder why did that happen and that shouldn't have happened and these people shouldn't have died I mean you know humanely we

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all probably say that but um your suffering happens when you believe that your suffering happens when you believe

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this should not have happened and it happened and you give reasons why or reasons why

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it didn't but it's it's that's a really I think um a a huge example of acceptance like I

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can't do anything about a earthquake that kills people but I can accept that it happens and I can accept that people

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passed away I can accept that I it hurt me it hurt other people um I hope that

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makes sense yeah and then you can also from what you're I want to build on what you were saying Melissa then you can also

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see if there's anything that you can do to help you know the world get through it you know I I don't know that's what just came to me like that was the next

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step and is there is there is any of this a part that I need to work with or I don't know how to explain it but it

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just came to me like can I help I don't know can I be in service maybe that's it is there anything I can be in service to

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to those to that situation I think that would make you feel better but I don't

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know if that's the basis of

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acceptance and the other thing is having the uh opinion that this was a bad thing yeah um you know we go back to

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that old man and his hes and his son and it could be bad it could be good who

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knows right I think that suffering is when we hold those thoughts that it's

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right or wrong good or bad and it should have happened it shouldn't have happened

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it and all those shoulds right

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you dropped the mic on us [Music]

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Melissa it doesn't make things easy and that's why the Eastern philosophies say

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life is suffering because it's not easy it's not easy to accept it and not want to take the next step to do something

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about it and I'm not saying you don't do that um but the suffering is in the

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non-accepting and I look at it just slightly differently Melissa that is pain is inevitable and uffing is

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optional oh yes that's the way I kind of look at it because we're all going to have pain so I think life is pain maybe

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that's the way I would take what you're saying life is pain but I can choose to suffer or not accept or I can choose to

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accept and be at peace well I think the suffering life is suffering is a statement made so you can

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choose to do something different so so you can not make stories of it you

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cannot say this shouldn't have happened that kind of thing when you life is suffering so you get to choose

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to to accept that and to let go of wanting it to be any different does that make sense it makes

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sense but I like reject it completely I see what you're saying that's why they say it that's why it is

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and that's where the suffering comes from yeah I resonate more with the words

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that Penny said right like that like because that's me taking my power back if someone says life is suffering I'm

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like new like I don't accept that I just don't I won't I won't anymore I think

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life is suffering when you refuse to accept life on its own terms it's not

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saying that you can't have a beautiful happy life it's saying if you choose to

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want it differently than it is that's when the suffering happens now something just dawned on me

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um so I remember in Psychology when I was studying psychology

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and I can't say who who founded this Theory but there's a a theory that

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there's a part of our human makeup DNA that says that we will go through these

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phases that are signals for or prompts to

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suffering and one happens in our post teenage years so going into adulthood um

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then again what we call midlife prices and then again when you're older and you're thinking well what was life all

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about and from what I remember is that

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when you don't reconcile those thoughts at each of those different phases that's when you latch on to

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suffering and suffering leads to depression so hence that's why I studied in Psychology to understand depression

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and where it comes from so that that kind of makes sense to me that I don't remember suffering as a teenager I know

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some people have very troubled teen teenage years I don't remember looking at it or ever thinking that I was

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suffering in my teenage years um nor did I feel that way up until the mid middle

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age in which that's now and now is when I feel it so the thought would be if you

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don't manage it in a way that's conducive to choosing right pain versus

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suffering um in a perspective that aligns with it then you could live the rest of your life living a life of

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suffering versus choosing the other option of seeing not have an attachment

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to outcomes um and in that also I remember

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that it Sayes when you can apply the situation that happens let's say you

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have the Heartbreak at 19 2021 and that can trigger the whole suffering thing for a lot of people right so if you

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don't have a a broader understanding which is where expansion comes from

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if you can't somehow expand beyond your own thinking and thinking that what

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there's a God there's something else out there that is in control right then that

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also helps to compound the suffering so it's not just a perspective if you will

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it is actually in our DNA that we will reach those Milestones where we'll have to choose we'll have to make choices to

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broaden ourselves or we will feel like life is about suffering have you seen

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sub the movie substance this is exactly what substance the movie is about it was a so was

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Academy Award nominee um for 2025 and um Demi Moore is in it but naked through

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the whole thing by the way and she it's all about like her character holding on

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to her Youth and the suffering that she goes through and holding on to her Youth

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and then it sprouts a a younger version of her and then that version holding on

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to what she thinks she needs to hold on to for her identity and her um

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worthiness it's a it's a horror movie it it is it was hard to watch it is um but

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it is like this in on a movie screen that we're talking yeah it's yeah and I

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do um I've heard that too Drusilla about like the different stages and up being

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attached to the one that you're in before moving into the next one it's something just came up for me

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about high school when you said that like I slept with um a friend's

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boyfriend you know like this whole drama around that and when you and like when you said that um drill when you were

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talking about that I went to that was a painful experience right it switched the whole thing I've done so much healing

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around this that it doesn't have that charge for me anymore but so that experience left unresolved I suffered

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for 20 years from it from that holding on to the guilt the shame the all of

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that right and um I think that's important I think that is a great example so was a painful experience it

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was a painful experience probably for bunch of people yeah other people that were involved yeah suffering came from

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holding on to the shame holding on to the guilt all that all of all of that

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unresolved stuff yeah yeah that was a great example Amanda I agree and I did I a lot of healing work

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around it and I um when my mother was going you know the last time I visited

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my mom and during my mom's death I got to reconnect with some of my high school friends and like I had done so much

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healing work around it when I got back with these friends and um it just I don't know how I came up maybe I just

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needed to talk about it with someone that I knew during that time but like I think um at least one of those girls

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didn't even know what happened right and like I was carrying all the shame and all this guilt around for years and

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years you know but a little bit of light and air with a whole lot of forgiveness stuff and looking you know and the way

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that you framed it Drilla like that was something to go through to heal like and it was um it's just different in my mind

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something clicked that was a pain that was a painful experience right if life does have pain yes yeah life does have

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pain but the suffering is like how long do you want to hold on to that suffering it's like a mindset right suffering is a

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mindset yes that's kind of what you're saying Melissa that's kind that's not kind of but that's what you're saying Melissa is it's a mindset it's where we

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set our mind to that we have to suffer we do our work yeah and without and

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without awareness it it won't it's it is basically life is suffering without

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awareness 100% Point yeah yeah so is that you think just awareness Drilla is

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the first step like the only step because all of Consciousness is awareness and you can't accept if you're

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not aware that that's what you need to do I mean it's it's still all the same

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yeah and you would have awareness that like your example Amanda that it

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happened you can't go back and change it it happened it hurt people you hurt yourself that's all painful and to

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understand that that was a painful experience is awareness and to understand that you are responsible for

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all the shame and guilt that you held on to and that is awareness of your

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suffering I think another part that really helped me heal this was um the

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awareness of like why that I would have that behavior like because you know like

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and so for me it was um not to blame anything like I'm done blaming and you know blaming my past for everything and

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at the same time like I needed male approval right I thought that that's you know that sex and men like that's the

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way you got approval like that's you know that was my history before that

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time so that was uh it seemed at the time like the what was supposed to

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happen the natural step and it wasn't till after it happened and like looking back that that's not so I think that was

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part of it was like you know for me the healing was kind of letting that person off the

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hook you know that had that behavior my my personal story yeah yeah and I think

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too um it helped you resolve some of your dad issues oh absolutely

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yeah so yeah and and yeah to clarify that about the awareness part of it it's

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not awareness as in the event maybe or even that you were involved in it and

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how it all played out but it's the awareness of the how do How does it go from Pain to

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why are you holding on to it it was a situation it happened um you know as you

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talked about in the introduction someone else could have gone through that how many girls have slept with friends boyfriends right but

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they may not have carried it around for 25 years right um so the awareness that

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this this happened but this is not who I am yes this is not who I am right it's

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it's a a situation it's a a thing that happened but it does